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[讨论] Gold Miners: GDX, GDXJ

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发表于 2013-6-21 10:47 AM | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式


本帖最后由 jamesmith 于 2013-6-21 10:49 AM 编辑

As an investor, I am attracted by cheap assets, with the recent turmoil in Gold, Gold miners certainly qualify to be looked at. And indeed the current valuation makes them interesting.

Let's just try to think about the underlying business here. Mining is not a fun business. It's labor intensive and capital intensive with many uncertainty.
To increase output beyond certain level, marginal cost of production will go up pulling average production cost up. Economic of scale doesn't have a big benefit in this industry. Miners can't control the price of their product, so they are price takers. (Yes they can hedge the uncertainty with future contracts, but still its not ideal). They have little influence over the demand of their product, and have to deal with operation risks. The conclusion is, this is not a great business, we have to buy them CHEAPLY from the start to increase the safety and return of our investment.

In the mining business, their is no innovation, advertisement, brand effect or whatever...There is only operation efficiency and cost control. Miners get stuff out of the ground as efficiency and cheaply as possible to make profit. But being price takers, even with the best management and most efficient mining team, you still can't control your fate. So to reduce our risk, we have to DIVERSIFY to reduce Unsystematic risk and take advantage of general cheap asset condition. That way, even if one or two of the miners went out of business, others we bought can still make a profit.

The best way to do this is of course study and hand pick 8 to 10 miners, but they are not interesting to look at and I don't like the business at all.
GDX contain larger miners include Goldcorp, Barrick, Newmont...which is safer bet.
GDXJ have some low quality junior miners that you might not want, but if you think hand picking 8 to 10 junior miners are too much work, it provides you the convenience.

The key theme is buy on cheap valuation when they are out of favor and diversify, then be patient...

Below are just useless guesses
With central banks hinting at slowing money printing, people are expecting yield to increase, that's causing the most recent drop in gold prices. But it will be a extremely hard task to get all these liquidity back, and Japan's crazy policy of currency debasement might have very very bad results. If Japan's currency implode, leading to a rush back to safety, gold prices will go up and beneficial to miners. However, miners don't necessarily need higher gold prices to do well, they need to lower production cost and maintain a stable margin.

Lastly, gold can be just part of your portfolio, but should never be all of your portfolio.

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 楼主| 发表于 2013-6-21 10:54 AM | 显示全部楼层
just for the record...current prices
GDX: $24.05
GDXJ: $9.32
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发表于 2013-6-22 06:35 AM | 显示全部楼层
谢谢!
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发表于 2013-6-23 10:43 AM | 显示全部楼层




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
130623 GDX, fina,Market Vectors Gold Miners ETF,exchng trdd fund
alpha -52.30,beta 0.66,a_vol 23759, div 1.85 -,insi 0.0 0.0,inst 0.0 0.0,
rating         Strong Sell        -        [-1-1-2-2 2]        -        3        0
[ DFF        P        T        -        DFF        -        TTT        T        -        DFF ]
[ F        CFF        -        -        -        -        CFF        CFF        DFF        - ]
[ -        CFF        -        -        -        -        CFF        DFF        DFF        P ]
[ -         -         -         -         -         -         -        b-        b-        b- ]
[ 4.44 6.05 5.76 | 30.49 30.98 323 | 23.53 22.73 440 ]
yahoo google fool finviz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
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发表于 2013-6-23 10:44 AM | 显示全部楼层
The GDX monthly pattern looks interesting
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发表于 2013-6-23 10:46 AM | 显示全部楼层




~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
130623 GDXJ, fina,Market Vectors Junior Gold Miners ETF,exchng trdd fund
alpha -60.90,beta 0.00,a_vol 4335, div 7.89 -,insi 0.0 0.0,inst 0.0 0.0,
rating         Strong Sell        -        [-10-1-1 2]        -        1        0
[ DFF        -        -        -        DFF        -        TTT        T        -        DFF ]
[ CFF        CFF        CFF        -        CFF        -        CFF        DFF        DFF        - ]
[ CFF        CFF        CFF        -        -        CFF        DFF        DFF        -        P ]
[ -         -         -         -         -         -        b-        b-        b-         - ]
[ 5.41 7.37 4.29 | 12.83 13.04 767 | 8.97 8.67 1154 ]
yahoo google fool finviz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


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发表于 2013-6-23 10:48 AM | 显示全部楼层
I am surprised, GDXJ has sizable dividend 7.89%
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发表于 2013-6-23 02:24 PM | 显示全部楼层
jamesmith 发表于 2013-6-21 09:54 AM
just for the record...current prices
GDX: $24.05
GDXJ: $9.32

i can't find the bottom of GDX, maybe will be 20 or retest the low.  
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-6-24 01:27 PM | 显示全部楼层
wsjboy 发表于 2013-6-23 10:43 AM
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
130623 GDX, fina,Market Vectors Gold Miners ETF,exchng trdd fund
alpha ...


No question this will be volatile as Gold tries to form a complex bottom, to be honest, I have no any idea on where this will go in the short term.
But cheap asset is cheap asset, as long as one diversify and be patient, and limit risk, one will do fine I believe.

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 楼主| 发表于 2013-7-1 05:10 PM | 显示全部楼层
jamesmith 发表于 2013-6-21 10:54 AM
just for the record...current prices
GDX: $24.05
GDXJ: $9.32

update:
GDXJ has a reverse split, 4 shares became 1 share. So prices for GDXJ when I post will change from $9.32 to $37.29 adjusting for reverse split...
I actually started a small position in both few days after my post, so entry price is lower, but that is MHP...
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发表于 2013-7-1 07:58 PM | 显示全部楼层


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
130701 GDX, fina,Market Vectors Gold Miners ETF,exchng trdd fund
alpha -51.16,beta 0.66,a_vol 26550, div 1.85 -,insi 0.0 0.0,inst 0.0 0.0,
rating         Strong Sell        -        [-1-2-1-2 -2]        -        3        0
[ T        -        DFF        -        TTT        T        -        DFF        -        P ]
[ CFF        CFF        DFF        -        -        P        -        -        TTT        T ]
[ CFF        DFF        DFF        P        -        -        DFF        P        TTT        - ]
[ -        b-        b-        b-        b-         -        b-         -        b+        b+ ]
[ 5.75 7.84 4.30 | 28.82 29.28 342 | 22.21 21.85 458 ]
yahoo google fool finviz
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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发表于 2013-7-1 07:58 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 wsjboy 于 2013-7-1 09:28 PM 编辑


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发表于 2013-7-1 08:00 PM | 显示全部楼层
I updated the charts, reverse split are reflected.
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-7-11 02:28 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 jamesmith 于 2013-7-11 03:16 PM 编辑
wsjboy 发表于 2013-7-1 08:00 PM
I updated the charts, reverse split are reflected.


you keep posting these charts...what does the letters and numbers below the charts mean ? Are they signals you generated?
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发表于 2013-7-11 03:32 PM | 显示全部楼层
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发表于 2013-7-11 05:15 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 wsjboy 于 2013-7-11 06:20 PM 编辑
jamesmith 发表于 2013-7-11 03:28 PM
you keep posting these charts...what does the letters and numbers below the charts mean ? Are they signals you generated?


The text below the charts are for my private usage. You can simply ignore them. However I have some detailed explanations for the top 3 lines and those links inside this post, (88#-91#)
http://www.hutong9.net/forum.php ... &extra=page%3D1

The left I will not explain to avoid misleading people.
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 楼主| 发表于 2013-8-12 10:15 AM | 显示全部楼层
patience pays, when I post this GDX was 24.05 and GDXJ was 37.29 (adjusted for reverse split), now GDX is 24.05 and GDXJ is 37.29. I don't know if anyone reads this and followed, if anyone did, hold your positions and let's see how this plays out. With so many central banks doing QE, I don't think this will end nicely. Can QE really be stopped when they wants to?

GDX    24.05         Gain:   16.42%
GDXJ  37.29         Gain:  21.43%

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发表于 2013-8-12 10:23 AM | 显示全部楼层
jamesmith 发表于 2013-8-12 09:15 AM
patience pays, when I post this GDX was 24.05 and GDXJ was 37.29 (adjusted for reverse split), now G ...

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发表于 2013-8-12 10:47 AM | 显示全部楼层
great pick!
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发表于 2013-8-21 07:35 PM | 显示全部楼层
jamesmith 发表于 2013-7-1 05:10 PM
update:
GDXJ has a reverse split, 4 shares became 1 share. So prices for GDXJ when I post will c ...

Hi LaoDa, when will you update GDX , I see FXC is riding the downtrend, and why DUST re-organized two days ago at this position? thanks!
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