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神经科学家试图从科学角度解读“濒死体验”(新科学家 杂志的采访)

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发表于 2011-5-11 10:01 AM | 显示全部楼层 |阅读模式


Near-death neurologist: Dreams on the border of life
11:00 4 January 2011
Books Interviews
Amanda Gefter, CultureLab editor


Neurologist Kevin Nelson explains how the brain slips into a strange state of hybrid consciousness during a near-death experience

How common are near-death experiences (NDEs)?
A 1997 survey reported that 18 million Americans had had one. When my team surveyed people who have had them, we found that some occurred during cardiac arrest but the vast majority were during fainting. Thirty-seven per cent of all Americans will have fainted at one point in their life, so I suspect NDEs are common.

In your book The Spiritual Doorway in the Brain you talk about borderlands of consciousness. What are they and how do they relate to NDEs?
We have three states of consciousness: awake, non-REM sleep and REM sleep. But there aren't absolute dividing lines between them - they can blend with one another, most commonly REM and waking. Twenty to 25 per cent of people at some point experience some kind of blending, a borderland of consciousness. What I have discovered is that the switch in the brainstem that regulates these three states functions differently in people who have had NDEs. These people are more likely to get stuck between the REM state and waking. So it looks like some people are prone to having these kinds of experiences. Interestingly, it tends to run in families.

Does that mean NDEs are a kind of lucid dream?
Lucid dreams are among the closest things we know of to an NDE. They are very similar. Brainwave measurements show that lucid dreaming is a conscious state between REM and waking. During REM consciousness, the dorso-lateral prefrontal cortex is turned off. As that's the executive, rational part of the brain, this explains why dreams are so bizarre. But if the dorso-lateral cortex turns on inside a dream, you become aware that you are dreaming. It is like waking up in your dream. When the body is in crisis during an NDE and the brain is slipping from consciousness to unconsciousness, it can get momentarily stuck in a borderland between REM and waking, just like a lucid dream.

But unlike dreams, NDEs tend to feature some specific images, such as seeing a tunnel with a light at the end.
The tunnel actually has nothing to do with the NDE - it's to do with what's happening to your vision. During fainting, for instance, there's a blackout because the eye isn't getting enough blood, so the eye begins to shut down even though the brain is still going. As it shuts down first from the sides and then into the centre, it's like looking through a tunnel.

The light that people tend to see has a few sources. To start with, the eye might only be capable of seeing smudges of light because of the tunnelling and lack of blood flow. Then, as the brain enters REM consciousness, the visual system becomes strongly activated - that's the rapid eye movement that defines REM consciousness. When the visual system is activated, you get light.

People often report having out- of-body experiences during NDEs.
These come about because the temporoparietal region of the brain is turned off, so the brain is no longer able to map the body's position in space. A Swiss researcher named Olaf Blanke was able to use electrodes to turn the temporoparietal region of a woman's brain on and off, making her feel like she was floating up out of her body and then returning. It was like flipping a light switch.

REM consciousness turns the temporoparietal region off, so if you are semi-conscious in a borderland between waking and REM, you can easily have an out- of-body experience. These are extremely common during lucid dreams, narcolepsy, fainting and sleep paralysis - all borderland states. I have never had one, though. I wish I could!

You often hear people claim that these experiences happened during minutes when they were declared clinically dead. How could that be?
This is an incredible misconception that has arisen because people use the term "clinical death" when they really mean cardiac arrest. When your heart stops and you lose blood flow, you don't lose consciousness for another 10 seconds and brain damage doesn't occur until 30 minutes after blood flow is reduced by 90 per cent or more. So when experiencing an NDE, you are not dead.

People like to say that these experiences are proof that consciousness can exist outside the brain, like a soul that lives after death. I hope that is true, but it is a matter of faith; there is no evidence for that. People who claim otherwise are using false science to engender false hope and I think that is misleading and ultimately cruel.

Do your findings undermine religious belief?
There's no conflict. I'm interested in how the brain works during spiritual experience, I'll leave the "why" to others. I'm a "big tent" guy. I think a dispassionate, non-judgemental view is important.

Kevin Nelson is a neurophysiologist at the University of Kentucky. His book The Spiritual Doorway in the Brain is published in December in the US by Dutton, and will be published in the UK as The God Impulse by Simon and Schuster in March
http://www.newscientist.com/blogs/culturelab/2011/01/near-death-neurologist-dreams-on-the-border-of-life.html


 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 10:05 AM | 显示全部楼层
“濒死体验”曾经是基督徒比较喜欢拿来证明上帝存在的一个东西。当年讨论的时候,ICLL给基督徒们最喜欢提到的那个英国医生(帕尼亚还是达尼亚,我忘记了)发过信,结果人家没回。当初我就抨击过这个英国医生对媒体发表的谈话,非常的不professional,也非常不科学。

以上转贴的Kevin Nelson关于他的研究的采访,从一方面说明了科学上应该怎么去研究濒死体验。转贴不表明我完全同意他的说法,但是我认可他的科学研究approach.

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http://hutong9.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=121530&extra=page%3D1  发表于 2011-5-11 08:42 PM
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发表于 2011-5-11 12:21 PM | 显示全部楼层
I don't think the author has any credits. for starters, does he have his own NDE?

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http://hutong9.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=121530&extra=page%3D1  发表于 2011-5-11 08:42 PM
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 12:22 PM | 显示全部楼层
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研究癌症的没得过癌症不行?
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发表于 2011-5-11 12:24 PM | 显示全部楼层
回复 在美一方 的帖子

now you are joking.
Cancer is far more common than NDE
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 12:28 PM | 显示全部楼层
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那好,研究心脏癌症的是不是非要得过心脏癌症的人才可以?心脏癌症可是极其罕见的
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发表于 2011-5-11 12:34 PM | 显示全部楼层
这两者之间有着"本质"的区别,癌症是生理上可探究的,而濒死就好象不那么单纯。

其实大家的争论就在于,到底能不能把濒死作的"单纯"了。
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发表于 2011-5-11 12:35 PM | 显示全部楼层
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心脏癌症是心肌细胞癌变还是心脏里的成纤维细胞癌变?
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 12:41 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 在美一方 于 2011-5-11 13:47 编辑

回复 sousuo 的帖子

neurophysiology is perfect for studying NDE

改动一下,更准确:

neurophysiology is perfect for studying NDE from scientific point of view
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 12:44 PM | 显示全部楼层
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either
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发表于 2011-5-11 12:44 PM | 显示全部楼层
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这要看我们希望的结果在哪方面。
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 12:46 PM | 显示全部楼层
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宗教为了维护自己最后的领地,当然会说科学只能研究物质了啊,no wonder哦

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http://hutong9.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=121530&extra=page%3D1  发表于 2011-5-11 08:43 PM
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发表于 2011-5-11 12:51 PM | 显示全部楼层
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科学难道不是只研究物质吗?

当然,还有物质的运动方式。
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 12:53 PM | 显示全部楼层
本帖最后由 在美一方 于 2011-5-11 14:10 编辑

回复 sousuo 的帖子

depends on 物质的定义范围。这种根本性的争论,我没兴趣,因为宗教徒们自以为他们和神的体验是科学不可以触碰的非物质东西,所以宗教徒们必然要坚守这点。

In case that you are not updated, FYI, neuroSCIENCE now includes scientific researches on behavior, mind, mind-body relation, cognition, and even social and/cultural aspects of human nervous system.
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发表于 2011-5-11 01:24 PM | 显示全部楼层
anyway here is what I think about death.
1. Human being have souls
2. Afterlife does exist

No one can prove me wrong. It's nothing to do with religions.

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http://hutong9.net/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=121530&extra=page%3D1  发表于 2011-5-11 08:43 PM
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 01:31 PM | 显示全部楼层
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anyone is trying to prove you wrong? how come I don't see it?
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发表于 2011-5-11 01:32 PM | 显示全部楼层
心理和生理快要会师了?
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 楼主| 发表于 2011-5-11 01:38 PM | 显示全部楼层
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科学无禁区
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发表于 2011-5-11 01:39 PM | 显示全部楼层
不用说NDE了,就是pass过去一两天后,没有任何生命信号,然后在活过来的例子也不是那么罕见的。

这个现象其实和大多数宗教并不矛盾,但和JD教的教义是矛盾的。
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发表于 2011-5-11 01:41 PM | 显示全部楼层
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恐怕还是有,不然就是所谓科学主义了。

当然,科学的"禁区"不该是外加的,而是囿于科学自身。
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